What awful scenes on the news this morning

Reg SoxReg Sox Posts: 3,121Member
edited August 2016 in Totally Not Guitars
What awful scenes on the news this morning.  Is this really what we are descending into as a species? Why do we have to import this crap from the US?  It's not as if we don't have few thousand years of our own culture to celebrate.  Actually, we don't import this crap.  It's our US owned High Street that imposes it upon us. I'd have more sympathy with UKIP if they looked west rather than east to counter the threat to "Britishness".  A far bigger threat in my book than a few thousand East Europeans. Cheers, Reg.

Comments

  • merlinmerlin Posts: 92Member

    I totally agree Reg. Christmas has gone absolutely nuts in the past couple of decades as has St Valentine's Day and bloody Halloween. Trick or Treat my ass...

  • Derek_RDerek_R Posts: 1,696Member

    Didn't see the news this morning - what happened? Was it chaotic sale-like behaviour as people fought to get to the shops?

     

    Must admit the few "Black Friday" deals I've looked at have been the same deals that have been available anyway if one Googles carefully. It's all a con as far as I can tell.

  • SmartySmarty Posts: 403Member
    It was the same last year and it's just shameful how people react to the prospect of a reduced TV. I refuse to be part of it. It's vile.
  • Reg SoxReg Sox Posts: 3,121Member
    Originally Posted by Derek_R:

    Didn't see the news this morning - what happened? Was it chaotic sale-like behaviour as people fought to get to the shops?

     

    Must admit the few "Black Friday" deals I've looked at have been the same deals that have been available anyway if one Googles carefully. It's all a con as far as I can tell.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30241459

  • Kevin PeatKevin Peat Posts: 3,139Member

    Reg - The assault on Britishness comes from all angles. In fact, to be more precise, it is an assault on Englishness. The difference here being that people aren't forced to have American things - at least they can vote for it (or against) with their wallets and unwillingness to participate. On the EU we have no vote and a vote is all Ukip is asking for.  

     

    It's not just a few thousand East Europeans, btw. Around 500,000 this year - probably millions over the last decade. Next in Yorkshire is advertising in Poland for its workers before the jobs are advertised here - Greencore sandwich makers did the same thing.  I don't think it is particularly a nationalistic issue - Britons have accepted immigration for decades - it is the fact that a standard of living is unsustainable if there is a continual race to the bottom on wages and pressure on limited public resources. How are we to get the national debt down if wages are depressed by workers being subsidised with in-work tax credits funded by tax payers whose wages are depressed by workers being subsidised with in-work tax credits funded by tax payers... and on... and on....

     

    More votes for Ukip it is then. 

     

    Merlin - arse not 'ass'. Ass is the 'merkin version of arse. 

  • Reg SoxReg Sox Posts: 3,121Member

    Kevin, Please define "Englishness".  I know what I mean when I use the word Britishness or Englishness, but what exactly is your definition?

     

    Cheers, Reg.

  • Kevin PeatKevin Peat Posts: 3,139Member

    Rather than asking me, Reg could you explain that to Hollywood film directors who keep casting Englishmen as villains ? They seem to have no problems defining Englishness. 

     

    Ditto the Scots Nationalists who were palpably anti English in their rhetoric. 

     

    It's me that has frequently argued in such debates that England is multi-cultural and that London is the most cosmopolitan city on Earth. 

  • Reg SoxReg Sox Posts: 3,121Member

    BTW Kev, it'd be useful if you quoted net migration rather than just the scare mongering numbers - hundreds of thousands leave the UK each year as well.  The UK's population has only risen ~10 million since 1964, and of course that includes the net of briths and deaths (where births have outstripped deaths apart from a short blip during the early 1990's).  But this is probably an inconvenient truth.

     

    Mid-year population estimates and annual change for the UK mid-1964 onwards

     

    Cheers, Reg.

  • Kevin PeatKevin Peat Posts: 3,139Member

    My main concerns are:

     

    - sustainability. 

    - law and order

    - health

    - skills and education

    - freedom of speech, thought and sexuality

     

    NOT any particular preservation of race or culture. All have good and bad facets, including English

  • Reg SoxReg Sox Posts: 3,121Member
    Originally Posted by Reg Sox:
    Originally Posted by Kevin Peat:

    Rather than asking me, Reg could you explain that to Hollywood film directors who keep casting Englishmen as villains ? They seem to have no problems defining Englishness. 

     

    Ditto the Scots Nationalists who were palpably anti English in their rhetoric. 

     

    It's me that has frequently argued in such debates that England is multi-cultural and that London is the most cosmopolitan city on Earth. 

    Pretty meaningless reply, but hey ho, you seem to support my view that Nige should perhaps look West rather than East!

  • Kevin PeatKevin Peat Posts: 3,139Member
    Originally Posted by Reg Sox:
    Originally Posted by Kevin Peat:

    Rather than asking me, Reg could you explain that to Hollywood film directors who keep casting Englishmen as villains ? They seem to have no problems defining Englishness. 

     

    Ditto the Scots Nationalists who were palpably anti English in their rhetoric. 

     

    It's me that has frequently argued in such debates that England is multi-cultural and that London is the most cosmopolitan city on Earth. 

    Pretty meaningless reply, but hey ho!

     You got a meaningless reply because you asked me a meaningless question. 

     

    Unless you really think you could trip me up into making a racist comment. 

  • Kevin PeatKevin Peat Posts: 3,139Member

    Thanks for the graph. 

     

    As we don't count in or out we don't know. I'd ask for your source but it doesn't matter. 

  • Kevin PeatKevin Peat Posts: 3,139Member
    Originally Posted by Reg Sox:
    Originally Posted by Reg Sox:
    Originally Posted by Kevin Peat:

    Rather than asking me, Reg could you explain that to Hollywood film directors who keep casting Englishmen as villains ? They seem to have no problems defining Englishness. 

     

    Ditto the Scots Nationalists who were palpably anti English in their rhetoric. 

     

    It's me that has frequently argued in such debates that England is multi-cultural and that London is the most cosmopolitan city on Earth. 

    Pretty meaningless reply, but hey ho, you seem to support my view that Nige should perhaps look West rather than East!

     

    I didn't say anything of the sort. 

     

    'Nige' is worried about numbers of people - not sales on the odd Friday. 

     

    You quote 'net' migration being the issue but we don't have a selection process. Anyone can come here whether qualified or not. 

     

    Those leaving the country will be qualified by virtue of wealth and/or skills. This is axiomatic as no other country offers such accessibility to health, welfare or easy access to unskilled work (either limited by visa and/or language barrier.) 

     

    The exchange is not a sensible one. 

     

    "We get doctors"

     

    We lose them too. And the determinant being better pay in Australia/Canada/NZ means that we're exchanging expensively trained ones for not so expensively trained ones. 

  • Reg SoxReg Sox Posts: 3,121Member
    Originally Posted by Kevin Peat:

    My main concerns are:

     

    - sustainability. 

    - law and order

    - health

    - skills and education

    - freedom of speech, thought and sexuality

     

    NOT any particular preservation or race or culture. All have good and bad facets, including English

    If we opt out of the EU it is inevitable we will become ever more US like.  As everything will be driven by how much money you have (even more so than today), then which of your concerns won't be impacted even more?

     

    When was the last time you were in the US?  People think of San Francisco/Silicon Valley as being one of the richest places on Earth due to it's High Technology industries.  It is if you are one of the shareholders.  Forget it if you arent;.  I spent a total of over two months in SF last year.  You literally cannot walk more than 10 yards without having to step over homeless people.  Despite it being one of te richest places in the world in terms of personal wealth, those that have avoid taxes to a man, and so do their companies (like Apple, Google, Amazon, etc etc try to do in Europe).  California is basically bankrupt as a state, and many other places in the US are similar.  Walk around Cities in Europe and you sure you see homeless people, but nothing like you do in one of te richest cities on Earth.  I know where I would rather be aligned. to politically.

     

    And Black Friday is still imported sh!t!

     

    Cheers, Reg.

  • Kevin PeatKevin Peat Posts: 3,139Member

    We're importing homeless people from Europe. 

     

    Our town now has imported Big Issue sellers. 

     

    We weren't America before the EU. It doesn't follow that we become America after it. 

  • Reg SoxReg Sox Posts: 3,121Member
    Originally Posted by Kevin Peat:

     You got a meaningless reply because you asked me a meaningless question. 

     

    Unless you really think you could trip me up into making a racist comment. 

    Not at all.  Maybe it's not an accusation to be leveled at you personally, but you only have to take a brief glance at any comments section of any media article and you will find multitudes of UKIP supporters claiming immigration is destroying "Britishness" or "Englishness".  I would like to understand what their individual sense of national identity is.

     

    Originally Posted by Kevin Peat:

    Thanks for the graph. 

     

    As we don't count in or out we don't know. I'd ask for your source but it doesn't matter. 

    ONS.  But if you what you claim is correct then the only assumption that can be made is your number are equally unverifiable then?

     

    Originally Posted by Kevin Peat:

    Those leaving the country will be qualified by virtue of wealth and/or skills. This is axiomatic as no other country offers such accessibility to health, welfare or easy access to unskilled work (either limited by visa and/or language barrier.) 

     

    That is a good point.  If we leave the EU I will be amongst very many people of reasonable wealth (and not inconsiderate tax contributions) that will relocate elsewhere.  Of course there's millions of other citizens of EU countries that hold similar views about the EU - a non-EU UK will become a massive magnet for them.

     

    Cheers, Reg.

  • BryBry Posts: 652Member

    Not the bargain telly thread I expected image

     

    TTIP!

    We are on sale and US is set to buy. 

  • Reg SoxReg Sox Posts: 3,121Member
    Originally Posted by Kevin Peat:

    We're importing homeless people from Europe. 

     

    Our town now has imported Big Issue sellers. 

     

    We weren't America before the EU. It doesn't follow that we become America after it. 

    Probably some isolated cases of what you say.  There's probably some paedophiles of Continental Europe birth, and other criminals.  Same with any other nationality that's representative of the make of England, included the English themselves who will by far make up the greater proportion of any category.

     

    Question is, is the EU the real Big Issue?  Of the 11.9% of the current UK population that is foreign born, only 3.6% of the UK population not born here are from EU member states - around a third of the total.

     

    The real issue is that Nige would drag us out the EU and not solve anything at all.

     

    I agree immigration is a problem and needs greater control.  My major major problem with UKIP is that it ain't going to solve anything - just drag us down.

     

    Cheers, Reg.

  • Kevin PeatKevin Peat Posts: 3,139Member

    "...take a brief glance at any comments section of any media article and you will find multitudes of UKIP supporters claiming immigration is destroying "Britishness" or "Englishness".  I would like to understand what their individual sense of national identity is."

     

    I don't know. But any other nationality is allowed to be proud of themselves and celebrate it. 

     

    The English, it seems, do not exist. Certainly not in terms of devolved rights or our ability to be able to say "We're English" without being asked stupid questions about defining ourselves. Care to mention another nationality that is asked to qualify themselves this way ?

     

    People will leave the UK if it leaves the EU ?  Well we ought not define policy by those who would choose to leave over those who would remain. 

     

    A reasonable toughening of borders would come with departure from the EU - though it is all probably too late now anyway. Talented and qualified people coming here (where there are shortages) ?  Bring them in !  Ukip has never been against this. 

     

    My numbers are unverifiable- a regrettable situation brought through the abrogation of basic duties by successive governments. What I hear and see is, however, verifiable. Various impacts (housing, hospitals and schooling are some) attest to the fact that we are overcrowded. Transport congestion (in which I work every day) is chronic. 

     

    The issue of immigration is often called 'incendiary' which indicates to me that a loss of temper is likely if the issue is discussed. Who will lose their temper if it is ? Certainly not Ukip who are the ones who have NOT been getting their way in the last decade - otherwise there would have been a loss of temper already.

     

    So why 'incendiary' ?

     

    The fact that is never appreciated or acknowledged is the peaceful, lawful and sensible conduct of the British public in seeking to redress this issue by democratic means through the ballot box. 

     

    Instead they are called fruitcakes and loons... and asked to define themselves. 

     

    I'd prefer Labour or the Greens to get on their high horse about 'black Friday'. It is, of course, they who are supposed to be against rampant consumerism and environmentally destructive consumption. 

     

     

  • Kevin PeatKevin Peat Posts: 3,139Member

    "I agree immigration is a problem and needs greater control.  My major major problem with UKIP is that it ain't going to solve anything - just drag us down."

     

    There is no solution then. In fact I have known this for some while. 

     

    My own view is that we shouldn't have Westminster. We don't need two governments (the EU and Westminster.) In fact it is a deception. 

     

    I vote Ukip because I want the Tory party destroyed and I want them to know why. Destruction of the Tory party means no opposition party which means (or should mean) no Westminster. Pure antipathy and vengefulness I agree. 

     

    If there are no English people (as you rightly posit - all nations are artificial constructs) then there is no England. With no England then why on earth do we need a national government ? We can end the Westminster dinner-debating club and save all the money on wages and security. 

     

    If we're going to be EU then let's be EU. The whole hog. Let's give up any pretence that we are an autonomous country. Let's do the redistributive wealth and taxation thing and smooth out the iniquities across the EU. 

     

    What I can't stand is the continuous drip-drip salami slicing of it all, the pretence that we aren't getting poorer as a people and the lie that this is for our own good. The most cruel torture is false hope and false hope is what Cameron offers us. 

     

    Let's get it done. Let's dismantle Britain and England. 

     

    Ukip - unwittingly - is precipitating this. If the EU is a good thing then they're not dragging us down at all. (I don't think the EU is a good thing. I think it's evil and we're going to end up with gulags eventually.)

  • Reg SoxReg Sox Posts: 3,121Member
    Originally Posted by Kevin Peat:

    The English, it seems, do not exist. Certainly not in terms of devolved rights or our ability to be able to say "We're English" without being asked stupid questions about defining ourselves. Care to mention another nationality that is asked to qualify themselves this way ?

    So what you are saying is that your view of being English is largely defined by our rights and possibly through other comments, our geography and borders?

     

    It's a shame that you seem to treat this as some sort of trick question.  It's not intended to be.  The question of the British/English national identity is one I personally find fascinating and have personally internally debated for years, and while I feel more comfortable with my own personal position it's still one that continues to evolve.

     

    Of the places I have travelled I've found there's only a couple that seem to have any sort of (unimposed) consensual definition of their national identity, those being the US and Australia.  When you have this discussion with many Europeans and try to dig into it it turns out very few have a proper feeling of true National identity.  We, and they, tend to deal in historic stereotypes when thinking of other countries identities.  But dig deeper and the stereo types are false and the younger the person you talk to, the less they think in terms of national identity.

     

    So increasingly, when you think of the English as not existing, this seems to be a common perception amongst other populations as well with the few noted exceptions.  Hence the stronger perception of national identity, the even stronger stereotypes applied to other countries.  Hence the anti-British theme you seem to find in Hollywood.  It's not really there, it's just a stereotype.

     

    Cheers, Reg.

  • Kevin PeatKevin Peat Posts: 3,139Member

    No nationality, no borders... no government then. 

  • Reg SoxReg Sox Posts: 3,121Member
    Originally Posted by Kevin Peat:

    "I agree immigration is a problem and needs greater control.  My major major problem with UKIP is that it ain't going to solve anything - just drag us down."

     

    There is no solution then. In fact I have known this for some while. 

     

    My own view is that we shouldn't have Westminster. We don't need two governments (the EU and Westminster.) In fact it is a deception. 

     

    I vote Ukip because I want the Tory party destroyed and I want them to know why. Destruction of the Tory party means no opposition party which means (or should mean) no Westminster. Pure antipathy and vengefulness I agree. 

     

    If there are no English people (as you rightly posit - all nations are artificial constructs) then there is no England. With no England then why on earth do we need a national government ? We can end the Westminster dinner-debating club and save all the money on wages and security. 

     

    If we're going to be EU then let's be EU. The whole hog. Let's give up any pretence that we are an autonomous country. Let's do the redistributive wealth and taxation thing and smooth out the iniquities across the EU. 

     

    What I can't stand is the continuous drip-drip salami slicing of it all, the pretence that we aren't getting poorer as a people and the lie that this is for our own good. The most cruel torture is hope. 

     

    Let's get it done. 

     

    Ukip - unwittingly - is precipitating this. 

    Well, you move closer to some of my own opinions here.  I would wholeheartedly support far smaller regional Governments, sort of expanded county councils, with no national government(s), but a Europe wide central Government.  The issue with this is suddenly the rest of Europe would suddenly develop anti EU positions!  It's all in for it to work properly.

     

    For me, being English is cultural heritage which in turn is informed by millennia of invasion and resettlement.  In the great scheme of things, the sea broke through the land bridge between what is now England and France to create the Channel a mere eight thousand years ago.  If that geological event hadn't occurred I wonder what the political landscape ad history would be now?

     

    Cheers, Reg.

  • Kevin PeatKevin Peat Posts: 3,139Member

    "Of the places I have travelled I've found there's only a couple that seem to have any sort of (unimposed) consensual definition of their national identity," Reg

     

    Scottish, Irish and Welsh ?

     

    YORKSHIRE ????

  • Reg SoxReg Sox Posts: 3,121Member
    Originally Posted by Kevin Peat:

    No nationality, no borders... no government then. 

    Not quite.  Despite all being "Europeans" each European country maintains distinct differences.  So nationality is important because it's all about identity, but increasingly people don't recognise that in themselves.

     

    I was talking about stereotypes earlier.  Applying that I'd observe our problem with the EU is traditionally we've been more German in attitude than Germany.  Our problem is once we have an EU law, we adopt it and enforce it.  In most other EU countries, get outside the capitals and many EU laws are only paid lip service to, even Germany.  We jump in hook line and sinker.  And that's why many people here resent the EU and see it as removing choice.

     

    So Nationality through identity (it'll be a real pity if we can no longer recognise and celebrate our differences - but I feel that's the way we're going), borders defined by use of language, but no national government.  That would be my ideal.

     

    We get hung up on Europe and issues driven by other nations will catch us unawares.  And that's what I feel is the problem with UKIP.

     

    Cheers, Reg.

  • Reg SoxReg Sox Posts: 3,121Member
    Originally Posted by Kevin Peat:

    "Of the places I have travelled I've found there's only a couple that seem to have any sort of (unimposed) consensual definition of their national identity," Reg

     

    Scottish, Irish and Welsh ?

     

    YORKSHIRE ????

    Scots - no, just proved that a couple of months ago.  Irish, not really.  Plenty of the descendents of Irish emigrants provide a romanticised vision of Ireland that gets bought into, but it's far from the current reality.  Maybe 30 years ago before the whole Celtic Tiger thing, but not now - they have lost their sense of identity big time.  The Welsh, probably the purest Celtic race in the UK in some parts of Wales and do maintain an identity, that is similar to the Breton identity.  But it's isolated pockets and not generally shared by the majority English speaking population.

     

    An the People's Republic - yes strong regional identity, but not a National Identity, which was what I was talking about.

     

    Cheers, Reg.

  • Kevin PeatKevin Peat Posts: 3,139Member
    Originally Posted by Reg Sox:
    Originally Posted by Kevin Peat:

    "I agree immigration is a problem and needs greater control.  My major major problem with UKIP is that it ain't going to solve anything - just drag us down."

     

    There is no solution then. In fact I have known this for some while. 

     

    My own view is that we shouldn't have Westminster. We don't need two governments (the EU and Westminster.) In fact it is a deception. 

     

    I vote Ukip because I want the Tory party destroyed and I want them to know why. Destruction of the Tory party means no opposition party which means (or should mean) no Westminster. Pure antipathy and vengefulness I agree. 

     

    If there are no English people (as you rightly posit - all nations are artificial constructs) then there is no England. With no England then why on earth do we need a national government ? We can end the Westminster dinner-debating club and save all the money on wages and security. 

     

    If we're going to be EU then let's be EU. The whole hog. Let's give up any pretence that we are an autonomous country. Let's do the redistributive wealth and taxation thing and smooth out the iniquities across the EU. 

     

    What I can't stand is the continuous drip-drip salami slicing of it all, the pretence that we aren't getting poorer as a people and the lie that this is for our own good. The most cruel torture is hope. 

     

    Let's get it done. 

     

    Ukip - unwittingly - is precipitating this. 

    Well, you move closer to some of my own opinions here.  I would wholeheartedly support far smaller regional Governments, sort of expanded county councils, with no national government(s), but a Europe wide central Government.  The issue with this is suddenly the rest of Europe would suddenly develop anti EU positions!  It's all in for it to work properly.

     

    For me, being English is cultural heritage which in turn is informed by millennia of invasion and resettlement.  In the great scheme of things, the sea broke through the land bridge between what is now England and France to create the Channel a mere eight thousand years ago.  If that geological event hadn't occurred I wonder what the political landscape ad history would be now?

     

    Cheers, Reg.

     

    Except it's what you really really want and I don't. 

     

    I've given up and just get insulted by the whole charade. That we have any say in it at all. Don't be mistaken that I love my country. I don't. I now hate it and have ominous feelings about its future. 

     

    This loathing has been brought about by the democratic deficit in recent decades, moreover the insults that flow when I express a view that doesn't accord with the Islington Hive Mind...  particularly being put on the couch and asked to define my nationality. (Jocko's never had to do this to justify his longings on this forum for national independence.)

     

    To be an English nationalist is a dangerous thing. It is to court all sorts or approbrium - the very words English Nationalist are coupled and used in the pejorative. To display the national flag is to court Islington types with their twitter sites. So I participate in neither flag waving nor national pride. 

     

    To be nationalistic is to be called insane or - worse - racist. (More specifically ENGLISH nationalist.There is a Scots Nationalist Party - can you imagine and English National Party ??? The BBC would have fits !)

     

    Ukip are finally allowing us to break out from these "you're all racists !" shackles. If we were true racists then we wouldn't be scared of being called racists. To be free of such a thing is utterly liberating and must be doing the NHS wonders ! (Far from Ukip dragging us down it is picking hitherto oppressed people UP)

     

    I shouldn't have to define my nationality but to be asked to do so makes me suspicious that I am about to have it proven to me that I don't have a nationality and that it is all in my head. 

     

    Nationality IS in the head but it is normally a healthy thing. People only destroy nationality when they want to destroy a nation. It is a fragile thing. One country is as artificial as another which is why laws against sedition are enacted. 

     

    Well you asked me what I think defines Englishness and I guess that is best shown in contrast abroad. Like most nationalities it is not all good and not all bad. In fact I would say it is more good than bad as so many top economies recruit English.

     

    Englishness has, for some time, been a diaspora - highlighted in your earlier comment where you demanded net migration figures to be used. 

     

    Our most saleable people are leaving our country despite its 'record' employment opportunities and going to places which DO prize their nationhood and do so quite openly. the ANZACs and USA. The former also happen to be non EU members and have among the lowest debt and highest standards of living - they can be relaxed about their nationalism as no-one is challenging them for it. The US is a weak bordered hotch-potch of states and, therefore, has a hotch-potch of people ... far more like the EU than England would be if it left it, in fact. 

     

    (How many people have you asked directly 'what defines your nationality' ?)

     

     

  • Reg SoxReg Sox Posts: 3,121Member
    Originally Posted by Kevin Peat:
    Originally Posted by Reg Sox:
    Originally Posted by Kevin Peat:

    "I agree immigration is a problem and needs greater control.  My major major problem with UKIP is that it ain't going to solve anything - just drag us down."

     

    There is no solution then. In fact I have known this for some while. 

     

    My own view is that we shouldn't have Westminster. We don't need two governments (the EU and Westminster.) In fact it is a deception. 

     

    I vote Ukip because I want the Tory party destroyed and I want them to know why. Destruction of the Tory party means no opposition party which means (or should mean) no Westminster. Pure antipathy and vengefulness I agree. 

     

    If there are no English people (as you rightly posit - all nations are artificial constructs) then there is no England. With no England then why on earth do we need a national government ? We can end the Westminster dinner-debating club and save all the money on wages and security. 

     

    If we're going to be EU then let's be EU. The whole hog. Let's give up any pretence that we are an autonomous country. Let's do the redistributive wealth and taxation thing and smooth out the iniquities across the EU. 

     

    What I can't stand is the continuous drip-drip salami slicing of it all, the pretence that we aren't getting poorer as a people and the lie that this is for our own good. The most cruel torture is hope. 

     

    Let's get it done. 

     

    Ukip - unwittingly - is precipitating this. 

    Well, you move closer to some of my own opinions here.  I would wholeheartedly support far smaller regional Governments, sort of expanded county councils, with no national government(s), but a Europe wide central Government.  The issue with this is suddenly the rest of Europe would suddenly develop anti EU positions!  It's all in for it to work properly.

     

    For me, being English is cultural heritage which in turn is informed by millennia of invasion and resettlement.  In the great scheme of things, the sea broke through the land bridge between what is now England and France to create the Channel a mere eight thousand years ago.  If that geological event hadn't occurred I wonder what the political landscape ad history would be now?

     

    Cheers, Reg.

     

    Except it's what you really really want and I don't. 

     

    I've given up and just get insulted by the whole charade. That we have any say in it at all. Don't be mistaken that I love my country. I don't. I now hate it and have ominous feelings about its future. 

     

    This loathing has been brought about by the democratic deficit in recent decades, moreover the insults that flow when I express a view that doesn't accord with the Islington Hive Mind...  particularly being put on the couch and asked to define my nationality. (Jocko's never had to do this to justify his longings on this forum for national independence.)

     

    To be an English nationalist is a dangerous thing. It is to court all sorts or approbrium - the very words English Nationalist are coupled and used in the pejorative. To display the national flag is to court Islington types with their twitter sites. So I participate in neither flag waving nor national pride. 

     

    To be nationalistic is to be called insane or - worse - racist. 

     

    Ukip are finally allowing us to break out from these shackles. If we were true racists then we wouldn't be scared of being called racists. To be free of such a thing is utterly liberating and must be doing the NHS wonders ! (Far from Ukip dragging us down it is picking hitherto oppressed people UP)

     

    I shouldn't have to define my nationality but to be asked to do so makes me suspicious that I am about to have it proven to me that I don't have a nationality and that it is all in my head. 

     

    Nationality IS in the head but it is normally a healthy thing. People only destroy nationality when they want to destroy a nation. It is a fragile thing. One country is as artificial as another which is why laws against sedition are enacted. 

     

    Well you asked me what I think defines Englishness and I guess that is best shown in contrast abroad. Like most nationalities it is not all good and not all bad. In fact I would say it is more good than bad as so many top economies recruit English.

     

    Englishness has, for some time, been a diaspora - highlighted in your earlier comment where you demanded net migration figures to be used. 

     

    Our most saleable people are leaving our country despite its 'record' employment opportunities and going to places which DO prize their nationhood and do so quite openly. the ANZACs and USA. The former also happen to be non EU members and have low debt and higher standards of living. 

     

    (How many people have you asked directly 'what defines your nationality' ?)

     

     

    The BNP stole the Cross of St.George and it seems both you and I want it back.  That is what you are suffering from in terms of your perceptions of how being a UKIP supporter you are treated.  Personally I just think UKIP are crazy not because of hte reasons that you state but because I don't think the leader of the party can see past his hatred of EU Central government.  It is Farage and that knob head Godfrey Bloom that you get associated with, not the party per se.  The problem for me is I don't think any sort of scenario where UKIP has a major influence in British politics that I can come up with makes anything better rather than worse.

     

    As to your question the answer is I've had the discussion with about 50 individuals from around the world (OK, hardly representative of the 7+ billion citizens of Earth).  It was an exercise sponsored about 10 years ago by my company to gain greater understanding of the different peoples and cultures we work with within our Global organisation, and by extension allows us to better understand our customers globally.  It was one of the more (actually probably the most) useful exercises I've been involved in and has promoted my ongoing interest in the subject.

     

    Cheers, Reg.

  • Kevin PeatKevin Peat Posts: 3,139Member

    The BNP stole the Union flag, actually. 

     

    Except nobody can 'steal' a nation's flag - particularly not a movement that couldn't fill a committee room above a pub. 

     

    No. 

     

    The national flags were deliberately conflated with racists by the Left and their media outlets - the BBC included. 

     

    Oh. And I don't want the flags back. To pretend they mean anything is a dysfunctional way of thinking. 

     

    PS. Please read my previous post as I have edited it.

  • JockoJocko Posts: 7,035Member, Moderator

    I think before tackling the EU benefit scroungers we would be better tackling our own, home-grown variety.  As for paying benefits to migrants, we should pay them what their own country would pay them, or what a UK citizen would receive, WHAT EVER IS THE LOWER FIGURE.  A European nation can hardly complain if we pay the same as they would, could they?

    Child benefit for children still resident in the country of origin.  Stupid.

    And as for an Independent Scotland.  I don't think it is that far off.  I think all the Labour supporters who voted Yes in the referendum will be SNP voters at next years General Election.  Goodbye Labour and Labour government.

Sign In or Register to comment.