I need a new amp

AxeMan99

Hi everyone,

I am now at uni and I have started jamming with my next door neighbour who is a drummer. My problem is my Vox AD30VT is only just loud enough to keep up with his flat drum kit and a normal drum kit drowns it out.

So basically I need a new amp to the following specs:

1. £200 - £400, cannot be stretched.

2. Excellent metal distortion, good ACDC type crunch and good cleans. Mainly the metal sound though.

3. All valve would be nice but I don't care as long as it sounds good.

4. Loud enough to jam/gig with.

I will keep my Vox for practice. I would really like a Laney GH50L but there is no way I can spend that much money on an amp. I will go to a few music shops to try stuff but I need a few ideas first. Amps I am considering include:

1. Peavey Valveking, either 112 or 212. Heard nice sounding clips of it but bad reports on reliability. Peavey are also expensive in the UK

2. Marshall DSL401, top end of my price range and haven't heard one. People have said that it is good for metal such as Trivium and Metallica. Will go and try one out if possible.

3. Laney LC30II. Looks good but apparently doesn't do metal well even with an OD. So probably rule this one out.

4. Laney LV300T. Only one preamp tube so its a hybrid. Theres a video of the head version of it on YouTube and it sounds good.

Has anyone got any other suggestions or any comments on any of the above?

Cheers

Unknown

Thoughts; if you're playing metal, use a pedal to get your distortion. Any amplifier that can produce thick distortion probably won't be very good at it. Boss make standard-setting (metal-specific) pedals here, give them a go.
Also, an all valve amp would be a waste for metal. Valve output sections are at thier best when being pushed, producing soft distorion. This is not a sound any, and I mean any, metal bands have ever used.
A better option would be a laney LV amp, with a tube in the pre. It'd warm up the signal, but be more reliable, cheaper in the long run, and lighter. You'd also be able to spend more on things such as well constructed cabinets.
At the price the Laney LV200 (listed at the TF200 on this site) is perfectly giggable (mainly due to the larger speaker than any wattage differences), but go up to the LV300T is you can, which is a 120watt 2*12.
They also make an LV300H, which is a head, so you could go and buy a good quality cabinet with the rest of you cash. If you were buying online, you'd probably have spent half your buget on the head.

Herbie

I'd disagree with some of the above. A valve amp can work very well for metal, however I would look for one which has solid state rectification. Valve rectifiers tend to have a little less bite, difficult to describe, but for that real metal choppy rhythm you need something that kicks in quickly..

That said, I would still budget for a good distortion pedal, even if it is to act as more of a third channel.

I haven't ever heard a hybrid that's convinced me of their value to be honest, but then haven't played with any of the recent models so I'm fully prepared to be wrong on this. Based on (somewhat out of date) experience, the preamp valve was there as much for marketing purposes as for tone.

Not sure that helps, but ultimately you've got to try some to decide..

AxeMan99

Thanks for your advice.

I have a Boss Metal Zone but tbh I prefer the distortion to come from the amp as pedals often sound tinny.

Although you are right that metal does not need power amp distortion a lot of metal bands get their sound from valve preamp distortion don't they?

Those Laneys do look good but they are suspiciously cheap? I am looking for an amp which I won't need or want to replace any time soon.

Edit: That was in answer to Mr Ijaks post.

Thanks herbie, but is it worth saving for a decent pedal and a tube amp or just getting a decent amp?

Unknown

Did I just see the words "Laney" and "well constructed cabinets" in the same sentence?! Thats always been the thing which has let Laney down for me - and I love Laneys!

As for distortion, try using your pedal with your amps overdrive - that might take away the tinnyness. Otherwise for metal sounds just get the bass and treble controls on the amp and pedal right up, and take the mids down a fair bit.

Other options are to get an extension cabinet for your existing amp - more speakers should give more noise - and over a greater area.

Also consider practising at a lower volume - perhaps with pads on the drums to quieten them down a bit - should help save your ears, keep the neighbours happy and allow you to be heard!

Just out of interest, what type of guitar are you using? You're never going to get the best of metal sounds if its got single coil pickups instead of humbuckers.

AxeMan99

Cheers for the reply.

I'm using my Ibanez RG370, which has humbuckers.

The Vox is a practice amp and it doesn't have a speaker out so I can't get an extension for it. It doesn't sound too good when turned up full anyway, so I do need a new amp. I think I'd prefer a valve amp with an overdrive as a booster but I have very little idea what to get.

And we do practice with the flat drum kit but there is also a music practice room available so noise isn't really an issue.

Herbie

Just realised that maybe I've answered the wrong question... have you tried all the usual things for getting more volume out of your amp? For example:

- Lean the amp back so it points at your ears rather than your knees.

- EQ it so that it cuts through more - lots more mids and less bass and treble. Doesn't necessarily sound great by itself by will help you cut through

- Put the drummer in another room / building or just get him to play more quietly

Just some things to try before you invest in a new amp...

AxeMan99

Yeah, I've tried the first two. Third one might work...

But seriously, I know I could also upgrade the speaker to one with a higher sensitivity but lets face it its a 30W SS practice amp. I'm going to need a new one if I want to jam or gig.

Has anyone had any experience with the Marshall DSL401?

Unknown

I've used the DSL401 in a band context once or twice, though not for metal. Trivium's guitarist, amongst others, use the head version of the DSL401 as their amps, and they're a metal band (haven't heard any of their stuff, so no comment on their tone) so I'd imagine it could cope fairly well.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Mr. IJaK:
Any amplifier that can produce thick distortion probably won't be very good at it.

With all due respect mate, what the hell gives you that idea?

Unknown

Peavey Valveking 212 and Metal Muff.

Job done.

Unknown

 Quote:

Originally posted by tTz:
 Quote:

Originally posted by Mr. IJaK:
Any amplifier that can produce thick distortion probably won't be very good at it.

With all due respect mate, what the hell gives you that idea? Most amplifiers are tuned for 'normal' levels of overdrive. Basically blues/rock levels. For most, it will actually be impossible to get the level to distortion neccesary for metal, or the clipping will be too soft. A dedicated pedal is more usable, or at least something that boosts the signal. I would bet you anything, having heard thier music, that the guitarists in trivium use dedicated pedals. The reason he uses a valve amp if probably because he couldn't think of anything better to spend his cash on. After all, he did buy a marshall...
Admittedly Laneys do suffer on cab quality, but if he buys the head and gets a cab with the rest of the cash, that won't be an issue.
Also, I wasn't saying that a valve amp would neccesarily be worse for metal than a solid state, just no better. And heavier, less reliable... and so forth.

Herbie

Having owned a series of valve amps I'd say that most (but certainly not all) were capable of really brutal (I believe that's the term the yoof use nowadays) metal...

Some valve amps are voiced for more bluesy / rock stuff, I'm thinking the AC30 clones, most Fenders and a lot of the earlier Marshalls and their subsequent copies, but there are dozens of modern valve amps which do metal better than any solid state, without pedals... Obviously it depends how you dial the sound in, but I've found the best tones come from pushing both the preamp and power stages, rather than relying on preamp gain.

I'm afraid you cannot get that Dual Rectifier thump from a Solid State amp...

Unknown

The marshalls are probably the closest to what you're after. The best way to find what you're looking for is to go and try out a few amps with your guitar and see what you like the sound of. I'd suggest that (if you can find one) you try out an ashdown fallen angel 40W or 60W combo. They're all valve amps designed for high gain. I think they might be slightly over your budget, but not a lot. I use an ashdown valve amp, and in my opinion it sounds great.

At the end of the day, choosing an amp is down to personal preferance, and what works with your guitar.

The other thing i'd suggest is calling around a few shops and seeing if they've got anything on clearance etc. Thats how i picked up my amp - dirt cheap

With valve amps its often worth looking second hand. At the most you'll have to replace the speaker(£50ish) and valves (£30 - 50) and the speaker will probably be alright but you could get yourself a great amp pretty cheap, although you won't get any waranty that way, so its a bit risky!

Herbie

The Fallen Angel, by all accounts, would be a excellent one to try... that said, I personally wouldn't get one secondhand. There were reliability issues with them at one point, so I'd pay for the peace of mind of a good warranty...

Unknown

 Quote:

Originally posted by Mr. IJaK:
Also, I wasn't saying that a valve amp would neccesarily be worse for metal than a solid state, just no better. And heavier, less reliable... and so forth.

Fair enough, but surely there are some amps that can 'do' metal; Mesa Boogie is the name that springs to mind.


Oh, about the Trivium guys; they both do indeed drive their amps with Tubescreamer-esque pedals. Nice guess.

AxeMan99

Yeah Trivium use Maxon OD9 pedals into DSL100 heads I think.

I would really like to try a Fallen Angel but they seem quite rare. I am going to try to try out a Marshall DSL401 sometime too.

Unknown

Same answer I've been giving for years when asked about a good, loud, value for money Metal amp:

Get a used Marshall VS100r combo - from their second generation of Valvestate amps. Should be around £200. Change the stock speaker for a Celestion V12 Century - these are light, very sensitive and sound great for Metal.

Total around £300.

Gives you enough left over for an optional Boss GE-7 or Danelectro Fish'n'chips EQ pedal for the FX loop.

I put this setup together for another band member a few years ago. He played AC/DC, through Satriani, to Slayer, with top spec Ibanez JS and Gibson Les Paul guitars. He is damn good and totally satisfied with just using the third channel of that amp: Tone to die for.

AxeMan99

Thanks Nik, I'll have a look for some of those as I've heard they are better than the new AVT series.

I've also just found the Ashdown FA40 for £299 which is a good price. Its just a shame I can't try one out.

Unknown

 Quote:

Originally posted by AxeMan99:
Thanks Nik, I'll have a look for some of those as I've heard they are better than the new AVT series.

I've also just found the Ashdown FA40 for £299 which is a good price. Its just a shame I can't try one out.

The FA has a good rep for tone, but not so good for build or reliability. Same as marshall DSL401. If you reallt want to go all valve, look out for a Marshall 6101 30th Anniversary series combo. One went recently on E*** for just over £400. I had one myself and they are amazing - every Marshall tone on one box. Also does a pretty good impression of a Soldano or Peavey 5150.

Unknown

On the ashdowns - i think the fallen angel has a lifetime warranty and ashdown are supposed to be very good for repairs and replacements. I wouldn't say the reliability is fantastic, but I can't fault the build quality on my Peacemaker (except for the obvious cracked VU meter - but thats just a gimmick anyway)

AxeMan99

Hmm, those Ashdowns are looking very tempting now. Especially since they are cheaper than the decent Marshalls. I need to try one out though.

Unknown

You really do need to try one - and make sure you take your guitar along when you do - make sure the two sound good together.

AxeMan99

Which do you think is better, the Ashdown FA40 or the Peavey Valveking 112?

I can try the Valveking out but I've yet to find a dealer of the FA40 near Southampton or Portsmouth.

Unknown

I'll let someone else answer that one. I've not tried the Peavey and I'm a big Ashdown fan!

Unknown

Alright. Just make sure if you get an all-valve amp, you don't get one with a massive wattage rating. If you want to get the best sound out of it, you've got to push it, and less should basically be more. Especially if you're using preamp distortion too, and espeically if you're boosting the guitar's signal.
Opposite is true of solid state amps, where you don't want to power stage to clip. At all. Power tube distortion does sound nice, but I have to admit I never thought of using it for metal. I don't play or like metal, however, so I should probably be ignored in that respect.
Not sure, but I think Ashdown are more 'modern' i.e. kinda Marshall DSLish, and Peavy are more vintage britishy. On my very vague interpretations, I think ashdown would be the way to go.

Unknown

GB reviewed the Ashdown Fallen Angels a while back, and their only criticism (iirc) was that the in-built effects didn't have any kind of level control, and were either intrusive or far too quiet, I can't remember. The reviewer loved the head version in particular, saying something like 'It has all the qualities of a vintage Marshall, combined with the gutsiness of a Fender combo'. And that was just the clean channel, can't even remember what he said about the distortion.


I quite liked the look of them tbh, but I forgot all about them until this thread. Aren't there two versions of them? An all-valve, and a half-valve (can't remember if its power or pre).

AxeMan99

Yeah, theres the all valve versions, and then there are ones which have an all valve pre and a SS power stage that is supposed to mimic a valve power stage.

Strangely the hybrids are more expensive than the all tubes on the site I found them.

Unknown

I'm sorry, can I just get this straight... are we supposed to NOT buy a valve amp for metal, because the power amp distortion would sound bad for that genre(!), or only buy a low-wattage valve amp so that when we play metal through it, we can get the power stage distorting nicely?

I had a Fallen Angel. It was my first valve amp. I sang it's praises. After the third breakdown, I sold it on bEay and bought an AC30CC. The AC30 is still going strong, EVEN THOUGH it's an AC30.
At the time I loved the FA's sound.
Now, the sound files I recorded of it to go with the auction sound poor, and serve to remind me of the amp's character (I can email them if you'd like). Ignore all that hype about the gain coming from the preamp. What's new there? It still cranks like a valve amp. It could well be that I just don't like Vintage 30 speakers!

I've heard good things about the ValveKing amps, but only heard one at speaking volume. Mooseh had one for at least 5 minutes, so it must have made an impression.

All the metal kids round here that can afford one, play Marshall D/TSL amps. All the times I've seen one live, I've not liked the sound. But that's just me. A friend of mine has a JCM800 (Zakk Wylde version), and that sounds lovely. The JCM800 is the archetypal metal amp, and the combos usually go for relatively little second-hand. In fact, a look on an auction site now would not be fruitless...

Another amp I've heard used by a metal band is the Hughes and Kettner Matrix . Not sure if it was just well set-up, or what, but that sounded great. That's a solid-state amp.
Also, their Warp7 amps are built for metal, and by all accounts are rAwK, though I've never heard one, and it appears they don't make them any more. They also make a Warp Factor pedal, which is a worthy contender to the Boss MetalZone.

Or how about:- Boss MetalZone + Warp Factor > Crate PowerBlock > Marshall 4X12?

Looooads of options out there. Good luck!

- Ed

Unknown

 Quote:

Originally posted by Crazy Eddie:
I'm sorry, can I just get this straight... are we supposed to NOT buy a valve amp for metal, because the power amp distortion would sound bad for that genre(!), or only buy a low-wattage valve amp so that when we play metal through it, we can get the power stage distorting nicely?

Depends on the type of metal.

Is Thin Lizzy Metal? That sound relies on a serious amount of power amp breakup from old Marshalls.

...Until John Sykes joined up. He used an overdrive pedal to give more preamp distortion and used less power amp distortion. You can hear the distinct change in tone.

Most Metal through the 80s used a combination of the two: Marshall with volume about half way up and either modded or boosted for more preamp distortion. The tell tale with this setup is that if you crank a Marshall JCM800 above half way AND have a lot of preamp gain dialled in, it starts to sound like crap.

With the arrival of the Peavey 5150 and the Mesa recto, Metal became more about preamp distortion and less about power amp distortion. Whether you see this as a good or a bad thing is down to your personnal taste. But if you crank up the gain on either of those amps, and also raise the volume above about half way, once again the tone becomes, flubby and indistinct at the bottom, and fizzy and thin at the top.

Preamp valve distortion can be simulated or augmented quite effectively with solid state circuits in the amp or in external pedals: Tubescreamer; Bluesbreaker; Rat; Metalzone; Warpfactor all do variations on it.

Power valve distortion is much more difficult. Some of the modelers get damn close (Vox Valvetronix).

Unknown

what about a randal amp , they are pretty powerful and cheep as chips!

al

Unknown

 Quote:

Originally posted by Crazy Eddie:
I'm sorry, can I just get this straight... are we supposed to NOT buy a valve amp for metal, because the power amp distortion would sound bad for that genre(!), or only buy a low-wattage valve amp so that when we play metal through it, we can get the power stage distorting nicely?

Everyone else appears to disagree with me, when I said power tube distortion is not for metal. As I said in my post, this means they're probably right, after all I don't like metal. However, if you have too much headroom for it to distort, you might as well get a cheaper, lighter, more reliable hybrid. 30watts will be fine, using tubes that break up early helps too (Marshalls or any of their clones are goo for that). At least then he'll have the choice of pre or power amp distortion.
As Nik said, preamp distortion is becoming more and more the norm in the metal genre; it sounds harsher and more aggresive. That's where my original comment came from.